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Trump says Puerto Rico toll from hurricane inflated by Democrats

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Photographs by The New York Times/DOUG MILLS

President Donald Trump tosses supplies at a relief center in Guaynabo, Puerto Rico, on Oct. 3, during his visit to view the damage and recovery efforts after Hurricane Maria struck the island.

President Donald Trump on Thursday falsely accused Democrats of inflating the death toll from Hurricane Maria in Puerto Rico last year, rejecting that government's assessment that the storm had claimed nearly 3,000 lives.

Trump said in a Twitter post that the toll was only six to 18 dead after his visit after the storm but that was at a time when the estimate of fatalities was changing. It rose to 34 in the hours after the president left the island. Trump said Thursday that Democrats padded the death toll by including, for example, a person who died of old age.

"3000 people did not die in the two hurricanes that hit Puerto Rico. When I left the Island, AFTER the storm had hit, they had anywhere from 6 to 18 deaths. As time went by it did not go up by much. Then, a long time later, they started to report really large numbers, like 3000," Trump wrote.

He continued, "This was done by the Democrats in order to make me look as bad as possible when I was successfully raising Billions of Dollars to help rebuild Puerto Rico. If a person died for any reason, like old age, just add them onto the list. Bad politics. I love Puerto Rico!"

The president's comments came as the government prepared for Hurricane Florence, whose high winds were already beginning to batter the coast of the Carolinas.

Puerto Rico's leadership and several leading Republicans in Congress took issue with the president disputing the estimated number of deaths on the island tied to Hurricane Maria.

"We strongly denounce anyone who would use this disaster or question our suffering for political purposes," said Gov. Ricardo Rosello. "I ask the president to recognize the magnitude of Hurricane Maria and continue working with my government to ensure a full recovery of the American citizens of Puerto Rico. We cannot allow the devastation of our citizens to be questioned and we cannot allow response efforts to be politicized."

San Juan Mayor Carmen Yulin Cruz, who publicly pleaded with Trump for a stronger response to the storm, also blasted the president.

"President Trump's statement, questioning the deaths in Puerto Rico, shows a lack of respect for our reality and our pain," she said in a statement. "He simply is unable to grasp the human suffering that his neglect and lack of sensibility have caused us. 3000 people died on his watch and his inability to grasp that makes him dangerous."

During a news conference on Capitol Hill on Thursday morning, House Speaker Paul Ryan, R-Wis., avoided directly criticizing Trump but said he had no reason to dispute the study's findings.

"This was a function of a devastating storm hitting an isolated island, and that is really no one's fault," Ryan said. "The casualties mounted for a long time, and I have no reason to dispute those numbers."

Rep. Ileana Ros-Lehtinen, a retiring Miami Republican, said that no one should distort the truth of what happened in Puerto Rico. "It might be a new low," Ros-Lehtinen said of the president's false claim.

The death toll in Puerto Rico has changed since Trump's visit to the island last year. Fatalities from the storm had been officially recorded as 64 for nearly a year, despite convincing evidence that the figure was too low because official death certificates had failed to take into account the long-range impact of the storm.

In August, after a thorough review by George Washington University researchers, Puerto Rican officials accepted a revised estimate of the dead as 2,975.

The study looked at the number of deaths from September 2017 to February 2018 and compared that total with what would have been expected based on historical patterns. Researchers factored in many variables, including the departure of hundreds of thousands of island residents in the aftermath of Maria.

The analysis showed that the mortality rate spiked in the months after the storm, particularly in the poorest areas of Puerto Rico, and among elderly men.

The unusually high death rate never completely reached the normal level even after six months, the researchers found -- a sign of Puerto Rico's continued struggle to deal with the effects of the hurricane.

Lawmakers -- Republican and Democrat -- have accepted the study's findings.

"These days even tragedy becomes political," Sen. Marco Rubio, R-Fla., said in a Twitter post Thursday. Rubio said 3,000 Americans died in Puerto Rico after the hurricane and said federal and local governments both made mistakes.

Since the storm, many Puerto Ricans have relocated to Florida and are eligible to vote in the midterm elections, making support from the Puerto Rican diaspora even more critical in the state that is known for close races.

Gov. Rick Scott of Florida, a Republican who is running for the U.S. Senate against a longtime Democratic incumbent, disputed the president's assertions in a Twitter post Thursday.

"I disagree with @POTUS- an independent study said thousands were lost and Gov. Rossello agreed," Scott wrote. "I've been to Puerto Rico 7 times & saw devastation firsthand. The loss of any life is tragic; the extent of lives lost as a result of Maria is heart wrenching. I'll continue to help PR."

The White House defended the president.

"As the President said, every death from Hurricane Maria is a horror. Before, during, and after the two massive hurricanes, the President directed the entire Administration to provide unprecedented support to Puerto Rico," said White House spokesman Hogan Gidley in a statement. "President Trump was responding to the liberal media and the San Juan Mayor who sadly, have tried to exploit the devastation by pushing out a constant stream of misinformation and false accusations."

Trump took to Twitter this week to warn residents in the path of Hurricane Florence to follow the advice of local officials and to be prepared. He also repeated his assessment that his team got high marks for the responses to hurricanes in 2017.

Trump has pushed back against criticism that his administration was slow to respond to Puerto Rico, where the distribution of supplies, gas and food lagged and power failures lasted for months, particularly compared with a swift response to an earlier hurricane, Harvey, that hit Texas. It was six days after Hurricane Maria hit the island before Trump pledged to go there, even as he traveled to Texas four days after Hurricane Harvey made landfall.

In July, the Federal Emergency Management Agency published a report, noting empty warehouses and not enough qualified workers in position to respond to the disaster. It did not include a fatality count, citing an ongoing review by the Puerto Rican government.

While Trump on Thursday accused the Democrats of "bad politics," Democratic lawmakers seized on the president's portrayal of the loss of life in Puerto Rico.

"You're right, Mr. President. The Hurricane didn't kill 3,000 people. Your botched response did," Sen. Robert Menendez, D-N.J., said in a Twitter post.

The House Democratic leader, Nancy Pelosi, of California, said in a tweet that the president "prefers his 'alternative facts' to the tragedy faced by families of the lost."

Rep. Bennie Thompson, D-Miss., called for the president to resign.

"The fact that the President will not take responsibility for his administration's failures and will not even recognize that thousands have perished shows us, once again, that he is not fit to serve as our president," Thompson said in a statement.

Information for this article was contributed by Eileen Sullivan, Julie Hirschfeld Davis and Nicholas Fandos of The New York Times; by John Wagner, Joel Achenbach, Mike Debonis and Sueng Min Kim of The Washington Post; and by Catherine Lucey, Zeke Miller and Jonathan Lemire of The Associated Press.

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Mayor Carmen Yulin Cruz arrives at San Francisco hospital in Rio Piedras area of San Juan, Puerto Rico, Saturday, Sept. 30, 2... + Enlarge

A Section on 09/14/2018

Comments

RBear says...

I know the usual cast of Trump freaks will back the president and ignore the evidence. I spent some time last night reviewing the GWU study which has been accepted as the official death toll by the FEDERAL GOVERNMENT and numerous other agencies and officials. The methodology is very sound and used three different models to cross-check the conclusions. The bottom line is that the lack of support by Trump's administration left American citizens in dire straits on an island that had been hit by two major storms in short succession.
...
Trump's rush to claim success put him in this position and he's not one to take blame for ANYTHING. So what does he do? Lies about the facts and throws the blame back at Democrats, making it a partisan thing. At a time when he should just focus on Florence, he creates a major distraction about something from the past. Now, the scrutiny on FEMA's response to Florence will be at an all time high.

Posted 14 September 2018, 6:32 a.m. Suggest removal

Nodmcm says...

President Trump is a conservative, and there is a logic to his actions. Many conservatives are eugenicists, so they pay a lot of attention to human breeding and heritage. Puerto Rico has a population of people who are a mix of native and Spanish heritage. Spain is in southern Europe, so the Spanish people are NOT northern European, and are NOT Anglo-Saxons. President Trump's heritage is German and Scot, so he is Anglo-Saxon and northern European. In conservative ideology, Anglo-Saxon-northern European bloodlines are superior to southern European, or American Native, bloodlines. So President Trump was slow to help Puerto Rico after the hurricanes, and now denies their suffering and loss. President Trump's father was a Ku Klux Klansman, and arrested while marching with other Klansmen. The Ku Klux Klan along with Nazis are eugenicists. That's why they hate everyone who is not Anglo-Saxon or northern European. Read up on eugenics to better understand our President, and his Republican Party.

Posted 14 September 2018, 6:59 a.m. Suggest removal

abb says...

“George Washington University also counted those who died in the six months following the storm as a result of poor healthcare provision and a lack of electricity and clean water.”

These numbers may be true. Most likely they are laughably fraudulent like the Harvard Study. What wasn't said by TDS liberals like RBear is that a a study like this has likely NEVER been done before in past hurricane aftermaths. If you change the method of calculation...

You must change the past event to fit the new criteria, or post both.

I guess they really don’t understand the difference between apples and oranges after all. Likely it was done ONLY to make Trump look bad.

The original count of deaths from the right wing NEW YORK TIMES said 64 dead. That toll from the hurricane included only those who actually died from the hurricane. CAN’T HAVE THAT!!! NOPE! Lets do another "study" using "estimates"! Yeah, that's the ticket!

Very likely it was done ONLY to make Trump look bad.

Like Katrina, Puerto Rican hurricane relief was a product of local government failures. Democrat, socialists, liberal failures (which didn't happen in Houston BTW with EPIC flooding).

The media also failed to report food and other relief supplies rotting in containers and warehouses because bumbling and corrupt Puerto Rican officials didn’t get them distributed. The Puerto Rican electrical system was also in shambles before the hurricane again due to corrupt and inept local government officials. Remember the mayor of San Juan lambasting Trump for not bringing enough aid while she was standing in front of pallets of supplies that were sitting in a warehouse? That was the same time that the GOV of PR said, "We are getting everything we need from the FEDS".

As for the GWU "study" that RBEAR is stuck to like a tar baby:
" Those involved with the study have emphasized that the 3,00 estimate(!) is not a conclusive number and further work should be done."

Let me repeat that slowly for you libtards hoping to stick this to Trump:
EVEN. THE. GWU. GROUP. ADMITS. THE . NUMBERS. ARE. ESTIMATES. AND. ARE. NOT. CONCLUSIVE.

Fake news, friend. Find something else to yoddle about. No one with 2 working brain cells is buying this bunk. Show me the bodies and death certificates and I'll retract all and apologize. Until then 64 died from the hurricane. Everything else after that, blame the local government and socialist unions who went on strike. Fake news. Lies. #walkaway.

Posted 14 September 2018, 7:43 a.m. Suggest removal

hah406 says...

ABB you are as ignorant as you are ugly. You have no concept of scientific study, and you malign GWU as having some partisan bent to the study. Facts are, if you died because you didn't have electricity or access to healthcare or clean water after the storm, you died because of the storm. Katrina was counted the same way. It doesn't necessarily reflect on a lack of effort by Trump, except the Orange Lord's ego keeps getting in the way. Dems had nothing to do with it, and it would be a non-story if you and Trump would just STFU.

Posted 14 September 2018, 7:57 a.m. Suggest removal

Nodmcm says...

So what you see with conservatives, who are also eugenicists, is that they assume and accuse those WITHOUT Anglo-Saxon or northern European heritage, such as Puerto Ricans, of being inferior in many ways, including having "corrupt and inept local government officials" and "socialist unions." Socialists, by the way, DO NOT consider human bloodlines or heritage to be relevant at all in any consideration of human beings' relative merit or value, so socialists are diametrically opposed to ultra-conservatives like Ku Klux Klan or Nazis. Note that conservatives always deny or minimize the suffering of non-Anglo-Saxons and non-northern European, like Puerto Ricans involved in this tragedy. Note that these observations are borne out in the comment above.

Posted 14 September 2018, 7:59 a.m. Suggest removal

RBear says...

abb I refer to Hah's comments. You are so out of your league on this you're stumbling over your own "arguments." With regards to deaths after the storm, you say "Most likely they are laughably fraudulent..." Really? As Hah stated, that was the methodology used in Katrina and in many other storms. It's widely accepted as a method to count fatalities from the impacts of storms. BTW, you do understand they use a baseline to factor out the normal death rate from what would be considered storm related.
...
What's even worse is how you attempt to blame PR for their problems, discounting the fact they are a US territory and entitled to the same protection as the states are. With regards to further work, the point being made is this HELPS improve future responses to disasters. You were a part of the military. Isn't that what the military did in the wake of any exercise? Maybe you were a part they were pushing out because of backward thinking.
...
Just face it. You are a crazy, unstable old woman who can't even get a coherent thought out. You lie constantly. You threaten people with 2A constantly. You act like you crawl out of a Cold War bunker daily. My guess is your family accepts you as the crazy old lady you are and keeps a distance.

Posted 14 September 2018, 8:04 a.m. Suggest removal

PopMom says...

RBear,

Please let's not be ageist or sexist. Yes, I know that I am hypocritical as I have called GenMAC a racist old man. We all should be better about classifying people by age. One guy in my yoga class who is 68 is in better shape than most teenagers.

Posted 14 September 2018, 8:21 a.m. Suggest removal

ARMNAR says...

She still thinks "#walkaway" is happening.

Delusional.

Posted 14 September 2018, 8:24 a.m. Suggest removal

RBear says...

Fair point, PM. Just getting tired of abb's CONSTANT ignorance on issues. I sometimes feel like we're having to deal with other issues at the time. But that's for others to consider, not us.

Posted 14 September 2018, 8:29 a.m. Suggest removal

Nodmcm says...

Note that PopMom advises against classifying people based on immutable characteristics such as age, and I bet she would also recommend against classifying people based on their racial or ethnic heritage or bloodline. This is how liberal, progressive people see others. They do not judge others based on how others were born, or based on characteristics beyond a person's control, such as age or disability. Conservatives do blame and make fun of people who are unattractive (born that way), have dark skin tone (born that way), have a disability like cerebral palsy (born that way). Liberals, and most particularly socialists, believe in total equality, even among the genders (born that way), races (born that way), and various age groups (no one can avoid aging). Do you blame people for traits they possessed the day they were born? Do you blame people for getting old?

Posted 14 September 2018, 8:29 a.m. Suggest removal

Nodmcm says...

RBear: I think you are wrong about Abb. She strikes me as a devoted ultra-conservative. She likely believes in bloodlines, and that they matter, and that you can judge the merit and value of a person by their parentage. This is a very common perspective among people raised in rural settings. Rural people are around nature and animals, and most animal breeders truly believe many behavioral traits are genetically transmitted across generations. Recall that the Nazi party in Germany during World War II had thousands of highly-trained physicians who believed strongly in human eugenics. We need to understand this ideology, and understand it well, because it poses a threat to those not Anglo-Saxon or northern European.

Posted 14 September 2018, 8:41 a.m. Suggest removal

Nodmcm says...

Ultimately, judging people on ascribed traits, traits they were born with (skin color, gender, ethnicity, disability status), is a lazy way to figure out people. Its like a shorthand system to categorize people without getting to know them. This method of judging people is also immoral according to most religions, it is illegal in most advanced nations, and it is unfair to people who simply cannot help the fact they were born 'that way.' Explanation of the ideology, and its wrongfulness, is perhaps all we can do to try to turn the tide of "-isms." If Puerto Rico were full of Houstonians, likely things would have gone differently, as we know they did for Houston after Hurricane Harvey.

Posted 14 September 2018, 9:15 a.m. Suggest removal

mrcharles says...

It is of course blood and soil. Me, while I have no proof , I believe , that is, I have faith I am descended from very important people, probably the very most important anglo-saxon mostest white people. Now my dna test says otherwise, but my belief vs science is what counts, and who can believe dna testing as science changes but most people's belief remain strong in them, the force is strong as they say.

For example an old person gets killed in a car wreck. Who is to say they would not have a heart attack that same day or the next and died anyway?

And trump, well we in god's chosen people here in usa, have always dealt properly with other colors of people. When the indians died off did we not say, Hey, there is land being unused and lets take if over to be prudent. As to slaves saved from tigers and great white sharks, did we not learn them many a trade, did we not provide housing , did we not let some read the ancient book, and finally did we not allow some white men to share their dna with them for their benefit in future generations to make them better humans [ think the mormons believe as skin gets lighter the person gets closer to a godly person].

abb is descended from the spirit of fox, occurring even before fox was first originated, like a prophet of old, just read about what them there prophets say in the goatherders guide to the 3rd rock from the son...after the fact like fox you can spin anything into anything.

Posted 14 September 2018, 9:29 a.m. Suggest removal

abb says...

Just more fake news to help sell Dem lies and Dem corruption...and you group-think Bolsheviks are propagating the lie, as usual, resort to name calling and mental projection.
Basically, corrupt Democrats in Puerto Rico created some commission to review deaths and reassign the causes to the storm. Funny how we don’t hear a peep about the USVI stats - and they had Irma and Maria pass through their islands. Not a peep! Irma only skidded PR in the north. Do you know why? It’s because the USVI did not politicize their numbers, that’s why!
PR/GWU just happened to come up with the new figures right before Labor Day and the start of the campaign season.
This is simply a dirty election year politically stunt to hurt Donald J. Trump and it’s a real glimpse into the darkness that is the political left of Rbear, et. al.
Oh, and I was wrong. Death toll is 65, not 64 as NYT stated. Source:
h t t ps://w w w.nhc.noaa.g o v/data/tcr/AL152017_Maria.pdf

Posted 14 September 2018, 9:54 a.m. Suggest removal

GeneralMac says...

Hard not to judge based on race when you do a detailed profile and the racial breakdown of the city's population is given.

MOST times, looking at the percentage of Blacks in a city allows you to predict the crime rate of that city.

A scroll down to CRIME STATISTICS proves your prediction was right.

Yes, there are SOME exceptions but even a clock that doesn't run is right twice a day.

Posted 14 September 2018, 9:59 a.m. Suggest removal

RobertBolt says...

Either these absurd Trump supporters are paid Russian trolls, irredeemably malignant in their estimation of humanity, or proudly ignorant. Regardless, they are suitable for mockery, but they do not deserve respectful engagement because they are incapable of integrating new evidence and revising misinformed dogma. That is not their job (paid troll) or cognitive ability (Trump Derangement Syndrome), so who cares what they think and whether they crave to be fed?

Posted 14 September 2018, 10:13 a.m. Suggest removal

GeneralMac says...

Taking the number of deaths after a hurricane and subtracting the number of deaths before hurricane and proclaiming that subtraction result ...IS...the official number of hurricane deaths is laughable.

That might be the way some poor third world country would do it to get an estimate, but to have a country like Puerto Rico do it is 100% politics.

In rural Minnesota, school enrollment into K can vary widely at smaller schools.
Only an idiot would subtract a low year # from a peak year # and use that as PROOF of # of abortions 5 years prior.

Posted 14 September 2018, 10:28 a.m. Suggest removal

RBear says...

OMG abb doubles down on Cold War stupidity. We’ll just have to leave it at that as rational, informed logic means nothing to her. Add to that the racist ramblings of fake. Both of you are just ... well, bizarre. You are why most younger Republicans shake their head when looking at the party.

Posted 14 September 2018, 10:30 a.m. Suggest removal

RobertBolt says...

Many on both sides of the political divide (including myself) have expressed the firm belief the other partisans are insane, evil, incapable of learning, or whatever execrable adjectives we choose to apply, yet some of us (on both sides) insist on continuing to engage with their opposites as though they are not the very intransigent fools and malignant trolls we accuse one another of being. To causual readers, it becomes difficult to recognize the commenters as anything but warped reflections of one another - some from the extreme right and others from the extreme left. True, some of us are obviously more educated, but that just accentuates the ridiculousness of choosing these endless verbal slap fights, especially if we want to claim our education gives us superior insight.

Posted 14 September 2018, 10:38 a.m. Suggest removal

GeneralMac says...

I laugh at how RBear ridicules older people and say younger people think completely different.

Younger people eventually grow up and put away the toys of their childhood and the politics of their youth.

Even some Arkansas Democrats even realize that the most important thing at a Democrat State Convention isn't to organize " LGBT, LGBT" groups to satisfy some one's ego ( RBear) so he could officially lead them.

Young radicals grow up RBear.
They mature.

Posted 14 September 2018, 10:42 a.m. Suggest removal

RBear says...

I laugh at how fake things younger people grow into the same racist, intolerant mindsets as he is today. In reality, young people typically will change their fiscal views but their social views remain the same. There are outliers like yourself and abb, but the vast majority have shown to maintain their social views over time. Such has been the case with women's issues, race issues, LGBT issues, the lists go on.
...
Your lack of reading comprehension regarding my comments on the AR Democratic Convention shows how ignorant you really are. I'm amazed at how often you get things wrong or can't seem to get your head around the issues. Then you rant daily like a little old queen as if it makes you sound relevant. There are reasons I draw you out like this, primarily to let others see how irrational you can get.

Posted 14 September 2018, 11:16 a.m. Suggest removal

RobertBolt says...

The adult in the room is the one who recognizes that the act of ignoring provocation is often the trait of the stronger person. Strategic ignoring is not aquiescence, and those who cannot understand that distinction also cannot understand other mature thought.

Posted 14 September 2018, 11:20 a.m. Suggest removal

PopMom says...

GeneralMac,

Actually, most people have become less prejudiced about gays especially when they realize that they have close friends or relatives who are gay. I remember many people my parents ages became less racist as they grew older. It is hard to stay prejudiced when you live in a world with black and hispanic doctors, lawyers etc. People are just people. You cannot judge their character by the color of their skin. You live in a very sheltered world up in Harrison where there are few black people. You also only read or watch news sources which highlight any incident of minorities committing crimes and ignore white crime. You should get out more, General MAc.

Posted 14 September 2018, 12:50 p.m. Suggest removal

GeneralMac says...

PopMom......maybe I should limit myself to just reading the Harrison Daily Times News section.

Then I would be unaware of BLACKS in LR car jacking, shooting, and stomping on old people.

same old, same old
day after day

Brings tears to my patriotic eyes what is happening in OUR capital city.

Maybe the state capital should be in NWA or better yet......Harrison.
( Moving it to Pine Bluff would be a lateral move and accomplish nothing crime wise)

No reason ANY state capital should be in the city in the state with the most violent crime.

Posted 14 September 2018, 2:23 p.m. Suggest removal

RobertBolt says...

Feed the troll, and it regurgitates.

Posted 14 September 2018, 2:25 p.m. Suggest removal

Slak says...

I hear the socialists calling for an end of the deplorables.
Great! Saddle up and bring it on!
Oh, you really can't, can you?
Maybe if you
1. Take over the educational systems and fill the kid's heads full of socialist propaganda and
2. Take over the print and electronic media and fill the adult's heads full of socialist propaganda and
3. Disarm the general population so they cannot defend themselves, then you might have a chance to take over completely.
Since the socialist proglibs have nearly accomplished 1 and 2 and since deplorables are dying off and the kids are getting a good mind f'kking, it is only a matter of time before the general population will be disarmed. Then the socialist elites can treat the deplorables any way they want. Genocide the northern European heritage types, I guess is what I hear being called for on this thread.
~
Under appropriate consideration, considering the world's population growth and the finite nature of our critical resources, socialism actually has a great case to present to sustain some kind of civilization in the face of over-population and resource depletion. Hard core control of the population is required. Hive society works. Elites make the social policy and drones carry them out. Property rights are so capitalistic, everything belongs to the Hive for the good of the Hive.
I like nature's way better. In the struggle for scarce resource, the strong should survive.
So, we can have WWIII or become socialist drones. I am leaning hard for WWIII. Let's see just who is the better deserving of survival. Competition is good for the gene pool.
~
Thanks to RBear for confirming the battle for young minds. If we can get them to believe the lie early, they will continue to believe the lie later in life.

Posted 14 September 2018, 2:42 p.m. Suggest removal

GeneralMac says...

Message on a billboard...

ANTI-RACIST

is a CODE word for

ANTI-WHITE

Posted 14 September 2018, 2:55 p.m. Suggest removal

GeneralMac says...

RBear would love a Democrat caucus in MN.

A lesbian jumps up and shocks everyone by screaming..."I'm a butch, I'm a butch"

The caucus is stopped and the lesbian is urged to come to the front and get the standing ovation " she deserved"

Posted 14 September 2018, 3 p.m. Suggest removal

RobertBolt says...

In my grandpa's corn field was a straw man who used to say ridiculous things, so it could argue against the absurdity its own absurd postulation.

Posted 14 September 2018, 3:05 p.m. Suggest removal

RBear says...

Slak they are thinking on their own and what they see on the right is pretty disgusting. You are your own worst enemy. We don't have to do a thing. I work with millennials daily, all pretty sharp IT folks. I don't have to say a thing. They make their own observations and they are fed up with intolerance and ignorance.

Posted 14 September 2018, 3:19 p.m. Suggest removal

Slak says...

Keep'em believing in Socialism and Santa Claus, RBear. Hard work, good job.

Posted 14 September 2018, 3:38 p.m. Suggest removal

ARMNAR says...

KlansmanMac probably paid for that lying billboard.

Posted 14 September 2018, 4:49 p.m. Suggest removal

Nodmcm says...

Slak writes above: "Genocide the northern European heritage types, I guess is what I hear being called for on this thread."
Nowhere is genocide mentioned, and certainly there is no serious leftist anywhere who remotely suggests genocide. I hope you are not claiming that whites having sex and babies with non-whites is 'genocide.'
Slak writes above: "In the struggle for scarce resource, the strong should survive." This is classic social Darwinism exhibited by Slak, and social Darwinism is the foundation of fascism and KuKluxKlan/Nazi ideology.
Slak writes above: "So, we can have WWIII or become socialist drones." Slak, your side is winning. Wealth is being concentrated daily in fewer and fewer hands, putting us further and further away from socialism. The two largest nuclear powers (USA and Russia) are led by despotic, authoritarian, neo-fascistic leaders. So just where are those powerful leftists you worry about?
A study of history shows that the handful of rich folks almost always beat the poorer masses in the competition for scarce resources. Slak, the war is over, and your side won, long, long, long ago.

Posted 14 September 2018, 4:52 p.m. Suggest removal

RBear says...

slak you completely missed what I said. I don't tell them anything. If anything, you seem to be the one who wants to "indoctrinate" them, which they will soundly reject. Millennials are independent, research the issues, talk to each other, and come to their own conclusions. What they see is a bunch of folks on the right who are bent on taking the rights of others away, lacking in compassion for others, and pretty much a bunch of bigots. Your attitude and that of others like fake and abb pretty much confirms what they see.
...
What will happen is they will overtake you when it comes to voting and shove you out. They will run for office and reject your ultra-right ideas. They will either become the new Republican Party or they'll reject it entirely and let it die on the vine. These are not pipe dreams. These are facts of reality based on natural order.

Posted 14 September 2018, 5:04 p.m. Suggest removal

DontDrinkDatKoolAid says...

Trying to find a tune to "scroling throught the trolling" or somrthng like that.

In other news, ... ht tps://ww w.cia.g ov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/rq.html

Of what I can see, the CIA has no data to prove one way or the other.

Posted 14 September 2018, 5:38 p.m. Suggest removal

DontDrinkDatKoolAid says...

Interesting read, ... ht tps://qz.c om/1390559/how-many-people-died-in-hurricane-maria-an-investigation/

Posted 14 September 2018, 6:13 p.m. Suggest removal

Slak says...

Full on hate of northern European heritage types is what I read, HAH. I extrapolated the genocide part; deep, long-held hatred historically leads to that.
Social Darwinism? Nah, that's fake Proglib propaganda and your link to Nazi and KKK anti-white propaganda, recycled and aimed at your political enemy. Fake. Sad.
Plain old Darwinism - Yes, that is the science behind the success of a species, not the success of a political idea. Quit hatin on the science.
A study of history shows nationalization of the means of production is a common factor in socialist strategy. Just like doing anything, saying anything to reach the socialist end goal. Many "off with their heads" moments in the socialist past.
I mean the pluralistic, socialist "you", RBear. These Millennials of which you speak have already been indoctrinated by the Proglib education system. I agree the Republican time is almost over. All that delays the revolution, throwing out the Constitution to kill capitalism, is the disarming of the old guard.

Posted 14 September 2018, 6:28 p.m. Suggest removal

ARMNAR says...

It's slak. Consider the source.

Posted 14 September 2018, 6:58 p.m. Suggest removal

RBear says...

ROTFL @ slak's comments on "indoctrination." If indoctrination means respecting the rights of all, having compassion for others, and embracing diversity as a nation, then give us more of it. When I read the writings of our founders in both the documents and their own writings as well as the religious texts - the Torah, the Koran, and the Bible - I find those principles core to each of them.
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Our nation has evolved over time to embrace the principles of the founders. We may not have all been there from the start, but we got there over time. We got there with the 13th, 14th, 15th, 19th, and 26th amendments. We will continue to evolve as a nation to strive towards the original goals. It is only people like yourself and other ultra-conservatives that hold us back, but that is only temporary.
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Thank goodness for these FREE THINKING millennials. They are the future of this country, ready to throw out a past of discrimination, bigotry, and hatred.

Posted 14 September 2018, 8:13 p.m. Suggest removal

abb says...

LOL! Rbear is throwing in his bet with millennial. Great. Ill take that bet. They can't even start a lawnmower, less a business, or a revolution. I guess the experienced and uneducated are Rbear's comfort zone. I can't wait until the low flying lead starts. Millennials will fold like cheap tents.

Posted 14 September 2018, 8:34 p.m. Suggest removal

DontDrinkDatKoolAid says...

Where in your readings of the founders did you find the "Koran" and where did you extrapolate "diversity" from?

Posted 14 September 2018, 8:57 p.m. Suggest removal

RBear says...

abb more like LOL at you. The millennials I know and who are really making waves are starting businesses that are turning into companies of the new economy. Your ignorance of their accomplishments is why they are turned off by you and others. Trust me, they've got this and in many ways. Let's just say you wouldn't be here chatting without the work of some of them. You'd be holed up in the bunker. After the latest economic report, I'm ready to have you silenced for a month IF you'll hold up your end of the bet (which I'm beginning to think you won't).
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DDDK are you ALSO reading challenged. I never said the Koran was in the reading texts of the founders. If I'm not mistaken, you have a continued problem with reading comprehension including some BIZARRE thing about "bills of attainer." Never found those bills you mentioned, nor any actual legal text associated with "them."

Posted 14 September 2018, 11:49 p.m. Suggest removal

DontDrinkDatKoolAid says...

The founders cared not of diversity, nor have referenced the Koran in any of their writings.
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But hay, you allude to those things in your post. In other news, I was wrong in of what you claim in that attainer thing.

Posted 15 September 2018, 1:12 a.m. Suggest removal

RBear says...

DDDK actually you completely misread my comment, but now open the discussion to more points which you are mistaken on. I never tied religious writings to the founders, but referenced religious texts as other examples millennials have discovered compassion, tolerance, and diversity in. You're trying vanely to create controversy where it is not. The fact you made that jump shows how polarizing you attempt to be.
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With regards to diversity, you are not going to find literal references to diversity in the text of the founders. It was not a common term of the time. However, in the opening text of the Declaration do you find respect for the rights of many in that all men are created equal. To go a step further, Jefferson and Madison wrote about embracing the ideas of many in the formation of our Republic, viewing that as fundamental to achieving a strong nation built on freedoms.
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But, since you brought in the Koran and tried to tie it to the founders (which I did not) let's go there. If you read the writings of the founders, you will find they accepted religious diversity and even included a ban on religious test in the Constitution. To go a step further, Jefferson, a devote Deist, owned a copy of the Koran and drew from its writings along with other religious texts as fundamental principles for his views. Muslim faith was present in our early nation and even though some religious purists tried to suppress it, many founders ensured the practice would be tolerated.
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With regards to the final point. Thanks for your admission. I chalk it up to a bad source. It happens to me also at times and it's frustrating. Moving past it now.

Posted 15 September 2018, 8:28 a.m. Suggest removal

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